On this page the video and full transcript of my Interview with Christopher Dalli in which we talk about his company, sustainability, ESG (environment social governance framework) strategy and performance, corporate social responsibility, transparency, equality and inclusion, Malta and more.
On the 20th of April 2023 I did my first recorded interview. And I think you can tell if you watch it: bad sound, no backdrop, and very nervous. So it’s not really good… And that is also the reason that I waited so long to publish it. Actually, for a long time, I was unsure if I would publish it due to the bad quality.
But since It was a good conversation, although a bit unstructured, and I didn’t even get to ask all the questions that I wanted as we moved from topic to topic, I decided to publish anyway. That is because it is the main source of my first sustainability review of L&L Europe and, in the light of transparency and I don’t want to withhold the source of my information, here it is for all of you to see and criticise.
You can watch the conversation below or on the BWC YouTube chanel. And below the video I added the full transcript. A summary of the main points and my full sustainability review of L&L Europe Ltd you can find here.
They key takeaways
In this interview between Floris and Christopher Dalli, CEO of L&L Europe Ltd, several key points related to sustainability, ESG (environment, social, and governance) framework, and corporate responsibility were discussed:
- Sustainability Definition: Christopher Dalli emphasized the importance of sustainability and how it has been a guiding principle in his personal and professional life. But his definition of sustainable is mainly focused on financial sustainability.
- Regulation and Sustainability: Dalli highlighted the role of regulations and legislation in shaping behaviour, particularly in areas like waste separation and recycling, emphasizing the positive impact of regulations on sustainability.
- Diversity: Diversity was identified as a significant challenge for companies, and it we discussed how companies need to cater to the needs of various communities and ensure effective communication and diversity within their organizations.
- Transparency: The conversation touched on the topic of transparency, with Dalli expressing concerns about excessive transparency potentially leading to unintended consequences or singling out companies unfairly.
- Balancing Profit and Sustainability: The interview explored the delicate balance between a company’s profit goals and its commitment to reducing harm to society and achieving sustainability.
- ESG Priorities: Dalli mentioned that governance is a top priority, followed by environmental and social aspects when considering ESG factors.
- Positive Discrimination: The interview delved into the complexities of positive discrimination, acknowledging its potential drawbacks and challenges in implementing diversity-focused policies.
- Community Engagement: L&L Europe’s approach to community engagement was discussed, highlighting their support for local businesses and their belief in giving back to the community.
- Carbon Footprint Measurement: The idea of measuring and making public the company’s carbon footprint was considered, with a suggestion to encourage competition among companies in reducing their carbon emissions.
- Challenges of Transparency: The potential challenges and downsides of excessive transparency, including the risk of singling out companies in a negative light, were discussed.
- Startups and Sustainability: The interview touched on the challenges and opportunities for startups like Better World Casinos in addressing sustainability issues within the industry.
Overall, the interview emphasized the importance of sustainability, diversity, and responsible business practices within the gaming industry, while also recognizing the complexities and potential pitfalls associated with these efforts.
Transcript of the video
[00:00:00.570] – Floris
Here we are now, I think yeah, purely for myself, so I don’t need to write notes. Second, maybe I want to use some parts for content on my website. But I would not publish anything without your consent. So I would first show you and get your approval and then
[00:00:18.270] – Christopher
perfect
[00:00:18.450] – Floris
Cool.
[00:00:19.300] – Floris
Did you had a chance to look at my email and my website?
[00:00:23.090] – Christopher
Yes, I didn’t have time to look at your website site. Actually I did when Neil told me about the interview the first time. Yes. I like what you’re doing. I like the concept which is approaching it at a very different angle and it’s a good angle. It’s nice to know. I think that there’s a good segment of people that do believe, especially the younger generation coming up now that do believe that this is something that should be kept at the forefront of your mind when you’re considering a supplier. Like everyone in my position, you read the statistics, you read the studies that people are bringing out and saying that people are showing a lot more importance to this. I mean, in practice so far, maybe because I come from an isolated little island, I’m not seeing it other than on paper. I don’t see it being done in practice all the time. But at the end of the day you start realizing at some point it’s all around you and you say, oh, this is how everyone’s thinking now.
[00:01:34.430] – Floris
One moment, because this is the worst time that my cat of course wants to leave the room. So let me just make this… Get out of here
[00:01:41.170] – Christopher
As long as you publish, you have to publish all of this, everything.
[00:01:46.930] – Floris
This is very exciting for me because you’re the first I’m recording you’re the first within your position as the head of an operator that I’m talking to. And I’m very eager to hear your opinion and see where you think the industry as a whole, where you personally stand as an industry. And then L&L Europe, of course.
[00:02:09.640] – Christopher
Yeah, well, maybe I’m a bit lucky because I am in this position, but I’m also not in this position for any public company. It’s a private company. The owners are, as you read previously, one is Dutch and the other one lived all his life in Holland. So their views align a lot with my own. I don’t have to hide what I think. I can be direct, I can be fully transparent without having to worry about the repercussions like maybe some of my peers would. And that allows me a lot of freedom.
[00:02:49.430] – Floris
It has advantages and disadvantages being public compared to being private compared to public. Yes. Public immediately have to consider their shareholders and whatever they say. On the other hand, they have a clearer agenda because they have the obligation for annual reporting, which ESG reporting is now becoming a standard in Europe. So for me, as journalist researcher, it’s easier to get information because I have the annual report to base my first data on. So therefore, I was also very happy again to have the opportunity to talk to you and see what’s going on in the kitchen of L&L. But let’s start with the first question that I also wrote in the email. What does sustainability mean to you? I’ve read in the interview you had with Casino News that you have two daughters.
[00:03:43.290] – Christopher
I do, yes.
[00:03:44.300] – Floris
What age are they?
[00:03:45.450] – Christopher
They’re two and three.
[00:03:47.050] – Floris
All right. They’re not busy with this topic at all yet.
[00:03:52.170] – Christopher
Well, I’m very sure that at the rate that they’re developing, that they’re going to be bringing these things up before you know it. But basically, I’ve always been approaching it very much from a financial point of view. So what sustainability has always meant for me has always been the concept that you are always seeing the bigger picture, you are seeing the actions of today are contributing to the steps to ensuring that 100 steps ahead, you’re going to be achieving your aims, and you’re still there, still going at it. You’re not seeing what’s good for today or this week. But my nature has always been a bit like that. I’ve always been very risk averse. I’ve been always been money conscious. I’ve always saved for a rainy day. I was raised with those principles. You should always have something, even when there was a time when I could clearly cover my expenses or the rainy day if it had to happen for a month or two. Still the same philosophy, still the same intent. And I’ve always tried to apply that a lot to my professional life as well. So everything we’ve ever touched is always with that concept in mind.
[00:05:18.710] – Christopher
So for me, it’s quite a big word, to be honest. Sustainability, I mean, I think you could ask a lot of my colleagues. I find myself using it a lot.
[00:05:30.650] – Floris
And a lot of people, when I ask them about their personal concept of sustainability and it’s often related to environment, they start like, okay, recycling, maybe an electric car…
[00:05:45.090] – Christopher
Climate change
[00:05:47.630] – Floris
best flying, or those kind of things. Are those things that you consider in your private life?
[00:05:52.790] – Christopher
In my private life, I have to admit, it’s not something, well… Our day to day life is fashioned a lot by regulation. So, as you know, by profession and by background, I’m a lawyer, so I might see regulation and legislation in a particularly positive light because I can see the benefits of it, not just the obstacles or negatives. And one of the main positive aspects of legislation is it dictates how people live their lives. And that means that when, for example, this is the case of Malta, what is happening right now, there is a strong emphasis being put on waste separation, recycling and enforcement for not doing that together with fines. You don’t see it as a negative aspect. You’re saying, okay, this is good, there will be some teething problems all the generations will have a bit of adaptation but then the younger generation, this is all they’re going to know, like what has happened with us. So then you know that same thing in the long term, it’s going to have very positive effect. It is going to help the sustainability of the planet on ensuring that we use our resources to the best of our abilities.
[00:07:17.790] – Christopher
And therefore, I can’t tell you I don’t apply it in my life because I live in a country which is already taking very active steps towards this and if I didn’t live it out, I would be always on the wrong side of the law.
[00:07:38.500] – Floris
Yeah, there are consequences and that’s also when later on, considering sustainability, I had a conversation the other day and the point that was made, like sustainability starts where compliance stops, and exactly (there’s) regulations demands us that by law that we have to take certain steps and they are a minimum, but as lawyer, you know that it’s very difficult to get those laws in place in the first place. But sustainability often goes much more beyond that, more than what we can demand of the people. And it also requires a certain mindset, which I think that the times are there, that more and more people are aware of this, that certain that we need to make different choices, not only because the law demands it for us, but also for the longevity of our species, of society.
[00:08:36.670] – Christopher
Yes, so basically, I guess the best way to look at it is that the law can provide you with a framework and can give you even basic minimum principles, but then it’s on you to adapt best to what is good for you and your needs and the needs of your community. It’s pointless doing something just to say you do it. You need to do it with a purpose in mind. It’s too abstract and too vague without, unless you get it to the granular. For me, I’m always going to be looking at it because of since I dedicate so much time to it the good of the future of my family and the good of the future of my business, so I’m always going to be thinking of it in that way when it comes to sustainability. I think it’s dangerous to just say point blank and just say, like, oh, yes, you have to go beyond what is needed because maybe your opinion of what is needed is very drastically different to what my opinion of what is needed. And we might not be doing what’s best for the common good, whereas maybe a unified regulator can have that visibility to be able to guide us all.
[00:09:56.540] – Floris
Yes, all right, so with regards to the challenges that the world faces and society faces when it comes to sustainability and that’s not only environment but also social. Is regulation always the best way then, I guess?
[00:10:12.210] – Christopher
I do. Again, I do feel so maybe again I’m biased because I form part of L&L. What is our strategy? Our strategy is regulated markets. How, what does that impact? If you just look at it from the social perspective, I would say on average most regulated operators would give more importance to the social aspect and the responsible gaming aspect and the consumer protection aspects as opposed to someone who is an unregulated operator. Did every single company set out with the same frame of mind, this is what I want to do for the customer? Maybe not. But because the regulations set out those minimal principles then even incidentally they are satisfying those goals. They are providing standards for responsible game, they are bettering society, they are helping the person. Whereas someone who doesn’t have to follow those regulations, you might find someone who has it, but I find that you’re more likely not to because that is one of the main incentives of being an unregulated operator.
[00:11:26.650] – Floris
The thing is we live in the common standard now of doing businesses that you have to compete. On one hand, what I also believe at Better World Casinos is that by dealing with these matters it’s good for marketing, it’s good for image because more and more consumers demand that their companies are not only purpose driven but also partly impact driven and have a clear stance on what is contribution to society. Whereas exactly, as you point out, brands that work in unregulated markets, they have a different agenda or they’re more mainly direct on the profit focus. And this is also something that I’ve been thinking a lot about. The purpose of a casino company is obviously to entertain and also to earn money, of course, for its stakeholders, for its employees and everybody wants to have a nice life. But that’s a careful balance, isn’t it? To decide when is money enough? As a head, as a company, do you have these considerations? And it’s like, okay, when it comes to compensation and these things like how much do we want to keep inside? How much do we invest back in the company? How much do we invest back into society?
[00:12:49.070] – Floris
And this is where we already segue into the ESG question like what does ESG mean? And sustainability for L&L and what is their strategy there?
[00:13:00.970] – Christopher
I’m going to throw it back at sustainability. And the conversation we had before. I believe very strongly: you should always keep in mind that there will never be enough money. So you can never have enough money. If that is the goal, then you’re going to fail. It’s a fool’s task. Two is bigger than one, three is bigger than two, four is bigger. So as soon as you hit it, you’re always going to be looking at it and say it’s not enough, it’s not enough. So that on its own can never be a determining factor of what you’re doing. So you should focus on the other principles around it. Now, in your question, you touched upon a lot of factors in one, obviously ESG your standard definition. You have your environment, your social and your governance. Me, in my position, I tend to look at the governance first and then the other two come with it. From being an online casino company, you said it yourself, we are an operator, we do casino and sports book, and we are a company. You cannot forget the company part. It’s misleading people if you do not say that this is for profit. Of course it’s for profit. The people who ….
[00:14:19.456] – Floris
of course you have to take care of your employees, no?
[00:14:19.600] – Christopher
…not only the employees, but also the founders, the investors, the people who set up and injected a lot of capital in order to make the company a possibility, a reality, to give so many people a livelihood, an employment, and also a potential service that they can get enjoyment from. So the company aspect, you cannot forget it, even though that obviously people take it for granted nowadays because they’re focusing a lot on the other aspects, sometimes the negative repercussions and everything. But it’s a company first and foremost. We also happen to be a casino company, an online casino company. And because of that, I feel that we have quite a detrimental impact on environment. It’s because of the nature of we are we have a lot of Internet pollution, we use data centers, we’re tech heavy, the whole world is going tech heavy. But because of the nature of our business, you see, what can you do to be lean, to be sustainable, both in terms of cost, but also in terms of waste. You don’t want waste in any sense. We’re lucky that the data center we use has already publicly had said that they are looking into using renewable energies.
[00:15:40.810] – Christopher
We use that we’re in a country which has maybe for their own reasons, and I’ll get to that soon wants to put more emphasis on climate change measures, renewable energies, trying to mitigate the impact of carbon emissions and trying to mitigate the impact on the environment. However, because of our nature, I feel that there’s only so much that can be done to mitigate the impact on environment. Going back to something you said before about how people can use ESG to show that they are impact driven instead of profit driven, and to show that they are purpose driven, I do hate that part of it. I hate that people are showing it so much. I hate that this is me, look at what I’ve done, look at us. This is what we’ve done now.
[00:16:37.390] – Floris
That is called greenwashing
[00:16:38.920] – Christopher
it seems a bit more like this is more of instead of dictated by our CSR team, more dictated by our marketing and media team. Again, my nature maybe I’m a bit of a skeptic, I don’t like that aspect of it. Maybe it becomes our disadvantage because even though we do stuff, we don’t advertise it enough or we don’t advertise it at all, so people will naturally assume we do nothing.
[00:17:08.230] – Christopher
However, I feel that, maybe I feel wrongly, but I feel that when you’re advertising it and trying to take advantage of it from a marketing perspective, are you doing it for the right reasons in the first place? So there is that balance as well. So from a social perspective, you keep these things in mind, what you’re contributing as a company to society, both in terms of your clients, both in terms of your employees, both in terms of your and in terms of your peers, the regulation does enough in the sense of it definitely steers us in the right direction. I feel that in the six years I’ve been here, seeing day one to now the changes we have had to implement because of regulation and because of the stories and the case studies that have been in the industry that have been happening. Maybe it was easier for me coming in from non gaming to gaming, and I could see it with fresh eyes and I could say, like, this is the way we have to go, this is what’s right. I didn’t need a law to come and tell me this is what’s right.
[00:18:16.860] – Christopher
Some of the things we had already inserted eventually came into law later. Some of the things we apply now are still coming into law in the UK. So we give a strong emphasis on affordability, we give a strong emphasis on interactions, on markers of harm. But most importantly, I think the main principle and the value we live by is you keep it simple and you just show you care and you be kind. You treat the player and you treat everyone else like how you want to be treated. These are basic principles I was raised with. You try to instill it all the time with everyone, every time, every person you meet, every conversation you have, and you end up sounding like a broken record. But eventually, hopefully, it becomes a bit inherent. Like, I’m sure there are a lot of conversations that you had with your own parents growing up that now that you find yourself, every now and again you might have a conversation with someone, you say, oh, I sound just like one of them in your head. So from the social perspective, as a company, we do stuff. I’m not the biggest fan of marketing it, advertising it.
[00:19:31.110] – Christopher
When we were all trying to help each other from the governance aspect. Again, this is my number one for the reason why I’m in this position. For me, the financial stability of a company is going to lead back to all that sustainability we talked about. My job here is not to make a quick buck in three months, six months and quick turnaround. It’s not this type of enterprise, not type of entity. The concept and principle we’ve had is treat the players right, keep improving day by day the business and the procedures we have. Keep the people happy both internally and externally. And eventually the money comes. It comes as you go along. But that’s not the goal. The money is the tool that will keep it going. We enjoy coming into work. We enjoy our daily lives. We’re office first. We like speaking to each other, we like seeing each other.
[00:20:57.730] – Christopher
You’re as friendly as coworkers can get. So long may this continue. We enjoy our lives. So for me that’s the key term to sustainability. It’s making sure you preserve it for as long as possible.
[00:21:13.430] – Floris
I think it’s very well explained and it all comes down. I think with ESG maybe should be GES because I think governance comes first as it determines the value and ethics within the company that flows into your E and your S behavior.
[00:21:31.310] – Christopher
I agree.
[00:21:31.860] – Floris
I think the governance is the umbrella on which environment and social sit. So to come back on what you said earlier yes, there are companies that are making too forward with it and seems more like marketing. I think that’s also for all companies, a very delicate balance to where do you like difference between public and private companies is the transparency aspect. Public company needs to be more transparent because that’s what’s demanded.
[00:22:05.030] – Christopher
Or less transparent because maybe they would be in foul of some regulation or law. Because if I was in that position and me saying the wrong thing could bring the company or myself into disrepute or penalty, then it would also fashion what I say and how I say it.
[00:22:21.390] – Floris
What do you think about the following statement is I was discussing it the other day with someone: business, up to now, if we look in the past, it has been opaque, the opposite of transparent, because that was what has been accepted and this is how business was done. There was no need for transparency. But now we’re changing times. Customers and society demands more transparency…. Now I lost my train of thought.
[00:22:53.910] – Christopher
Would it be about reporting principles or transparency in the terms of I don’t know what you were going to say, maybe pay or gender or diversity.
[00:23:06.570] – Floris
Now more and more it’s being demanded to be transparent. So how transparent do you want to be in order? Like the point you made not to be too obvious, marketing and greenwashing like, look at us.
[00:23:17.230] – Christopher
Yes.
[00:23:17.790] – Floris
One of the things that I often get annoyed by when I went to look at operators, they are very proud that they’re compliant. And then I think, you’re not compliant, you don’t have a license, you’re out of business. So why is there to boost or be so proud about being compliant?
[00:23:35.410] – Christopher
Or just as bad is about promoting all the awards you won in certain compliance and responsible gaming and then being found in breach of those same conditions and regulations which you’re promoting.
[00:23:49.770] – Floris
There needs to be some humility in it as well.
[00:23:52.410] – Christopher
So that’s the thing that gets to be I feel that the transparency is not being very transparent, it’s actually being misleading.
[00:24:00.180] – Floris
I remember the point that I was trying to make. If you’re now so you could get away with not being transparent because it now was demanded, now it’s becoming more and more normal that you are transparent. So if you’re not working towards more transparency, it’s because you have something to hide. Is that a right conclusion?
[00:24:18.370] – Christopher
Yes. But my counterpoint to that is should everything be completely public? Shouldn’t some things be private? Again, I come from a world of regulation and legislation and also I’m a lawyer, so I have had spent a lot of my time being the recipient of confidential information. People trust in me and therefore people tell me things which they wouldn’t otherwise disclose. They have that freedom knowing at the back of their head that that information is never going to be disclosed. But if you suddenly make everything transparent, I’ll go straight to it. Like, for example, I am not a big fan of the way that the pay transparency directive is going to come in. I understand why it is coming in. I understand how some companies have caused an issue. But in truth, sometimes the statistics can give the wrong impression. And I understand that it’s only applicable to very large companies, or at least large companies in one of the three criteria. If you’re over 250 employees, if you hit 40 million net turnover, 20 million assets, and we’re not that size of a company. But if someone had to just strictly look at how much do your females earn versus how much do your males earn, you are going to see a gap.
[00:25:56.750] – Christopher
But the gap is not one that has been intentionally created or it’s one because of lack of opportunity. It’s very far from the case. I mean, I find myself having these discussions with people, telling them, don’t shy away, go for it, apply for the opportunity, see if you get it. We’re here, we’re very straightforward. If someone can do the job, it doesn’t matter where you come from, who you are, whatever, the most important thing is the job at hand and everything, and then you get paid for the job. We don’t have discrepancy other than experience and capability for the job. Now, unfortunately, most of our senior positions are held by men. Historically, that’s just how it is. And we have extremely low turnover, so we’re not going to kick people out, just to kick people out just to satisfy a quota. You see…
[00:26:52.950] – Floris
Positive discrimination is also discrimination.
[00:26:56.570] – Christopher
My problem with that is that. I hate…, I understand the reason why it needs to be imposed because of the discrimination which does occur. But I hate how it could impact companies like ours where this is not a thing and we’re very open about it. We have these discussions internally. So I’m so ultra aware of it. You end up creating some kind of positive discrimination in the wrong way. So when I say it like that, I know from statistically that the most common applicant for a job role is a male Caucasian. That is the most common applicant because he will not stop, look at everything and say oh, I satisfy 99 out of 100, so I won’t apply. However, other demographics, they will do that. They will look at a job application and they will rule themselves out before they even apply. It’s very common. And that creates an imbalance in the application pool. And then obviously, if you find a company like ours and you’re trying to just base it on skills and assessment and everything, then the best person wins, whoever that is. But if you’re competing out of a pool of nine men and one woman, the chances of her getting the job are one in ten. That’s it.
[00:28:21.620] – Floris
It’s very interesting. I’ve never considered that there are people that don’t apply to a certain position because they think of the general people that get those positions, that they don’t fit that picture. So they already don’t apply because they think they won’t get the job based on gender, ethnicity.
[00:28:39.760] – Christopher
Yes. So this is a reality. This is a fact. And that is why the background and the context why people feel that quotas are necessary because with the use of quotas, when you see people who represent you in positions, senior positions, in positions which were historically never, you could never imagine yourself to be in that position coming from your background and everything. When you see that it’s a reality and this is the norm, then it inspires you to also work towards that and get there knowing that the ceiling has been broken. I can get there as well. It’s not just because of who I am. I cannot get there. But it’s still unfair on companies like ours that though you don’t need to do that with us. So why are you restricting why are you imposing on me a potential situation where someone who is not as good as someone else gets a role and someone who is better fit. But unfortunately, because they don’t fit in the right demographic, now they are being discriminatory again. So again, it’s a delicate balance with all these things.
[00:29:48.170] – Floris
It’s interesting. It makes me think like could you counteract it by putting in a job vacancy, for example, not that we specifically look for a female or a black person or somebody, but saying like, we do encourage everybody to apply, even though, even if you might think… How could you communicate that to circumvent it?
[00:30:11.750] – Christopher
So the thing is, they’re inherent biases, so it’s because they’re normal characteristics of the type of applicant. It’s very difficult to do one communication that is going to cater and target and address each and every one of those biases that will reassure that person that they can apply. You can definitely get it wrong, but you can’t. Like, if you say something like, pregnant women don’t apply, obviously you got it very wrong, but there’s no such thing in my opinion. And I hope to be someone can enlighten me and say, like, we found massive success with this. There’s no such thing as a one size fits all. So what you try to do is then you create the positive discrimination. You say at an early stage, you try to reassure people, like, listen, this is the situation, this is how we are, these are the values. Like I said, it doesn’t matter who you are. The most important thing is we see that you get the job done. Your character is a fit for the company. And these principles which are faceless, they’re the value, they’re the results oriented. But that’s why then these, thankfully, these laws originate and start with the biggest companies because obviously, since you have a bigger pool, then the bias is increased, the discrimination increases, and that’s why it should be targeted at them.
[00:31:53.720] – Christopher
However, the plan is to expand it to all companies eventually and that becomes a bit more difficult.
[00:32:00.550] – Floris
I think it’s one of those examples where there is no way to be perfect, but you should strive, or be on the path to doing it in a certain way. But along the way, we have to figure out how this work and how we can do this the best way, until the moment that we realize that we’re sort of there and that everybody’s getting the same opportunity.
[00:32:23.230] – Christopher
Awareness is key. Me being aware of these facts, me the one that I’m discussing with you being the father of two daughters, I am going to be in a good position to be able to communicate to this already, to them. If they come and tell me, oh, there’s that job, but I’m never going to get it. So I’d be the first one to say, you know what, let them take that decision, go, try.
[00:32:45.080] – Floris
I you know you have the skills and the experience that they require, then anything else should not be relevant.
[00:32:50.940] – Christopher
Yeah.
[00:32:53.430] – Floris
Cool. So it was very nice to go into detail about this case of gender equality because this is one of the topics that’s within ESG, always very high on the list. I think when we talk about ESG within the Igaming industry, it’s first of all, like we said, compliance. Well, we have mentioned that before. It’s actually it shouldn’t be an issue. Compliance is there. If you’re not compliant, you are out of business. Then the second one is, of course, responsible gambling, which is the most important, I think, within the industry. Rightfully so, because we want to reduce that harm as much as possible and people to enjoy gambling for what it is, a form of entertainment. Then gender equality is the third, I think, that I always most often encounter in the list. So what would be the next most important topic for Igaming when it comes to ESG?
[00:33:51.930] – Christopher
I wouldn’t say it would be relevant just for Igaming, but it’s for any company, it’s diversity.
[00:33:58.090] – Floris
We’re focusing on Igaming.
[00:33:59.840] – Christopher
It is diversity. And I mean, okay, gender is one thing, but diversity means a lot of things.
[00:34:08.110] – Floris
Diversity is what I should have said.
[00:34:12.770] – Christopher
Okay, let’s say we’re including it in the previous conversation because the same principles apply. It does require a lot of knowledge being if you are in a position, a senior position, and you are leading a team that is made up of different individuals coming from different nationalities, different backgrounds, different situations. I do believe it does require a lot of attainment of knowledge on that person’s part to be able to be adequately equipped to cater for the leadership of that team. So the reason why I bring this up as a challenge for the Igaming industry is because whether you like it or not, the bigger the companies are, the pool of people are going to come from different nationalities, different backgrounds. And even though we can, like I told you at the very beginning of this conversation, I can describe it as a company with Dutch flavor. It’s Dutch backgrounds and beginnings. I mean, there’s a Dutch community, there is a Maltese community, there is Scandinavian community. And you need to be able to be able to communicate properly with all and take into the needs of all and then make sure that everyone can communicate in between intra community.
[00:35:39.580] – Christopher
So the diversity, I’d say, is the biggest challenge, both from an operational perspective and a sustainability perspective.
[00:35:47.710] – Floris
Let me put you what’s the word for this?
[00:35:52.660] – Christopher
Off topic?
[00:35:54.030] – Floris
No, not off topic. The statement that I’ve made many times. I just want to put it in front of you, see how what you think, a company could not make a profit unless it reduced its harm to society or it’s done everything it can to be net zero and to reduce its harm. And after, then when you invested all your profits, revenue in that, then you can start making the benefits. How do you think about that statement?
[00:36:23.860] – Christopher
I think it’s false. I think it’s the same concept that you just mentioned before. If you say that you need to be perfect before you can then start to operate, you will fail before perfection. So what you need to do is strive for perfection. You need to have your procedures in place with that aim in mind, but always keeping in mind the obstacles along the way. I feel there are some bigger companies that have made a mistake that they have, maybe for marketing and media reasons, maybe it’s because of what you said before. They need to be purpose driven and impact driven and need to be seen to be that. But they made this their main mission at all costs. And then suddenly when they see that it’s hurting them a lot more than they actually thought it would, rather than benefiting them from a profit perspective, they did a uturn and abandoned that mission very quickly or suddenly mitigated its importance. I don’t like that. I feel like it’s not very transparent to begin with. So I will tell you from day one you mitigate the risk when not mitigate it to zero, because it’s impossible to mitigate it to zero, especially because of the nature of the industry itself.
[00:37:34.390] – Christopher
Some of the signs of harm and some of the signs of risk come retroactively. They come later or with deep analysis and you don’t always get it right. So perfection is impossible. If I had a team here which was made up of only responsible gaming analysts and nothing else, the business would crumble. So you cannot only size towards one way, but it’s a whole ecosystem. I think we have to balance right? Because from a commercial perspective we’re doing well. From a responsibility perspective, we’re doing great. We have taken a huge hit from the side of we do not seek aggressive growth, we seek very sustainable long term growth. I’d rather have 100,000 people spending £10 than one person spending £10,000.
[00:38:33.990] – Floris
Yeah, sounds perfectly healthy to me. Good.
[00:38:38.550] – Floris
One last question I think that I had in mind. When it comes to procurement, for example, you guys are in Birkirkara, right?
[00:38:47.370] – Christopher
No, we’re in Mosta.
[00:38:50.730] – Floris
Oh, sorry, I don’t know why I thought that.
[00:38:51.850] – Christopher
So you mean recruitment?
[00:38:54.330] – Floris
No, procurement. So when you come to basic things where… Earlier I said, when we talk about ESG, what comes to mind is always responsible gambling, diversity, compliance but when it comes to sustainability, it’s also the choices that you make for… You mentioned earlier like, okay, we have a server provider, our servers run partly on renewable energy. Is that at some point a factor for this years business decisions, for example, also other things when it comes to office furniture or very mundane or your next company party in these kind of business decisions, does ESG have any place there?
[00:39:38.650] – Christopher
Yes, it does. I can’t really pinpoint specifically to tell you these are the specific strategies. For example, we wouldn’t uproot our data center for another data center if they are leaning more towards ESG at this time. Not just simply on that sole criteria. Particularly if we see that our business partner is already taking steps towards there and has signal that they’re going to be there. Because then it’s just, again, it doesn’t seem very business savvy. But I do have my frustrations from an ESG perspective as well. So one of the things, main things that I would say, maybe it’s coming from my lack of science or lack of knowledge of the system, but one thing which I’ve always wished for was the capability for everyone to invest in as much solar power energy as possible. We’re a sunny island.
[00:40:39.770] – Floris
Yes, you are in Malta
[00:40:40.620] – Christopher
yes, we have a majority of the year sunlight. It’s renewable energy. It seems like an opener, especially if you can afford the upfront cost. Let me have as many panels as you want. But unfortunately this is the negative impact of regulation that maybe it could be that our infrastructure cannot support it. But there’s a cap, there’s a maximum amount you can actually invest in.
[00:41:06.380] – Christopher
That is something which I wish could change because I do think that which benefits everyone, it lowers your costs in the long run as well as becoming more sustainable, less reliable on the grid.
[00:41:23.060] – Floris
That’s also why I think that the Igaming or the casino industry and gamble industry in general could play a very big role because the funds and money is there. To really support this transition, it comes to procurement and the choices you make. Like you said, solar panels, okay, regulation might not be favorable to really go all the way, but where other smaller companies might financially not be able because often it still is the case that the more sustainable option is a bit more expensive. So I think that within the gambling industry, because the funds are there, of the money is being made, there is a lot more options to choose for these things. And this way we could push this transition because the more this industry is being supported, the quicker that prices will drop due to increase in numbers.
[00:42:20.650] – Christopher
But again, it goes back to a bit what I said. I don’t like only thinking in that way of thinking, even though I completely
[00:42:27.510] – Floris
I agree with you, it’s not about being perfect.
[00:42:31.310] – Christopher
One of the things which we do quite often do, now that I think about it, is for example, we like to when you organize a team event or something, we either have it at a place which is related to an employee here. So whether it’s a spouse or a partner or their own thing or someone that might need a bit of a helping hand at this time. So we like to give them a bit of business for our business that way. Because wherever we go, again, it’s a gaming company, we don’t really hold back. And you have a good time as well when you’re having a good time. But I feel like it has a lot of benefits. It has no profit implications whatsoever, at least no direct ones other than keeping, I feel like good community happy. But I think that’s one of the key things that the gaming industry has been very successful in. They’re very happy to spread the joy around, spread the word. It’s a give. Back to the community?
[00:43:32.230] – Floris
Yes. Are you familiar with the difference between scope one, two and three emissions?
[00:43:37.590] – Christopher
No, I am not.
[00:43:38.810] – Floris
So when it comes to calculating your carbon footprint scientifically, the scientific based calculations, they distinguish between scope one, two and three. Now, one and two is always a bit tricky to distinguish because one is what you actually use and I have to see if I know it correctly. Then two is like your employees, your flights and your commutes and all those kind of things. But scope three is all your suppliers. And I think that especially there in scope three, it’s underestimated the amount of impact we could have as an industry on encouraging other businesses and supporting other businesses that trying to make the extra effort and in that way accelerate the transition.
[00:44:23.970] – Christopher
I can only agree.
[00:44:27.410] – Floris
Would you at some point, to come back to the point of transparency. There are many companies that help with making transparent your carbon footprint and see to measure it because it all starts with awareness to know what effect you have and then you can see where you can reduce that’s something that you have done or would consider in the near future. And if so, would you make that public?
[00:44:56.350] – Christopher
I mean, we can. I’m a bit also concerned about the negative repercussions of transparency. I don’t want transparency to have be created in order to vilify people. I don’t want a situation where suddenly we’re pointing at ABC and saying that entity and that company, shame on them because they have this gender pay gap and they have this carbon emissions which they never looked at and everything and using that kind of negative pressure to cause it.
[00:45:28.410] – Floris
I hope to with my platform betterWood casino. I hope you have the opposite effect. Not to point to (victomize) and shame but to say thumbs up,
[00:45:38.530] – Christopher
look at how good these guys are… yes yes
[00:45:41.150] – Floris
For example look at how L&L is making the extra effort. I’m working for example, with our partner SG certified on creating a casino or sustainability index for casino operators. And this is one of the things that we would rely on building this information not only from the environment but also the social effect. And it would be very interesting to get as many companies on this bandwagon to say like look, this is what we do and let’s make a bit of a competition out of it and see who gets closer to the zero line.
[00:46:10.680] – Christopher
And that’s exactly that’s a very good idea in the sense of maybe they should, in order to avoid this, only make transparent the very best. And then if you want to be seen in this category you’re going to have to strive and you’re going to have to like listen, we’re not singling you out as such a bad player but we’re not singling you out as a good player either. So you’re going to have to work hard to be in that category of these companies which are like we’re doing so well. You’re doing great. You’re everything. Everyone should strive to be you. But I hate there is an aspect of human nature that sometimes people enjoy seeing other people getting destroyed
[00:46:53.890] – Floris
People being called out online. And the haters got to hate.
[00:46:56.690] – Christopher
Yes, the shade (and ?…) . So I’m a bit afraid of that side of the transparency. Ah directives and the transparency because because it’s quite easy to suddenly pick your villains when we should be celebrating the heroes.
[00:47:15.530] – Floris
And that’s also what Better world Casinos is a startup and in some cases, a sensitive topic. The industry in general, for many people, have still a taboo. And when you think, like, when I talk to people asking, what do you do? It’s like, Well, I do ESG in gambling and they just have a hard time mixing those two together. Like, what does it mean? But as I said earlier in the conversation, all industries need to transition, so also gambling. So I hope that by having these kind of conversations and raising awareness and maybe also hopefully giving people a bit more to think, that we, step by step, go into this direction.
[00:48:02.010] – Christopher
Perfect. I wish you the best.
[00:48:04.140] – Floris
Thanks, man. I love this conversation. Thank you so much for it very much. Appreciate it. And, well, hope to speak to each other soon. I’ll be in Malta. In May.
[00:48:13.390] – Christopher
It’ll be good to get a beer, meet up.
[00:48:16.440] – Floris
I’d love to come visit the office.
[00:48:18.380] – Christopher
Yes, of course. Super.
[00:48:22.370] – Floris
Christopher, thank you so much. Have a great day and we’ll be in touch.
[00:48:25.890] – Christopher
Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye.
